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From a top installers perspective, to prove installer error, the person claiming error, should at the very least be able to prove such, by himself, rectifying the error, should he not? If not, then what good is he?

How do inspectors know exactly what is wrong, if they don't know what's right?

Perhaps inspectors should be made to prove what they say, but then this industry would not be able to control and demean installers if they had to prove things.

To purposely set out to humiliate and disrespect men that do a job most of you couldn't do for even 5 years, much less 20 or 30 seems hateful, greedy and demeaning at best.

This industry purposely makes all phases of installation at the least, 3 times harder, while you cheapen and demean our trade at every turn, because you want to make more money and yet, you destroy innovation, craftsmanship and care, from one American to another and all these things are passed down, in many forms.

You destroy America and her people for the sake of greed.

All that has happened in our trade is showing up in many other fields, again, to the detriment of all Americans.

Properly handled in a court of law, any inspector that is proven incapable of being able to prove installer, by being able to correct any mistakes himself, can be beaten.

Now if installers were inspectors, then they would have to prove installer error, if it's true and they are good enough.

There are many things called installer error that are not and they are easily proveable, for the men worthy of being inspectors. Of course many of them can be corrupted by license, just as a great many others.

Proof is the only thing that matters and every single roll of carpet is different as we all know, so each case is unique.

If you can prove otherwise, please try, because I say you are incapable of beating me right here, much less in a court of law.

correction from above should read---

Properly handled in a court of law, any inspector that is proven incapable of being able to prove installer error, by being able to correct any mistakes himself, can be beaten in a just court of law.

sounds like someone got nailed for shoddy workmanship.

if you want a court of law to make a determination, you have every right to file a lawsuit to demand monies lost, then force them to prove that you didnt do your job right, while proving you did do it right.

I have much respect for good inspectors who use the industry standards, manufacturer specifications, and their schooling to prove or disproove someone claim, that there was good or shoiddyu workmanship in instrallation, that there was a factory defect, or unconmtrollable condition that caused a failure.

Inspectors arent out to make anyone look bad or good.

they have one function ... independent unbiased search for the truth.

Some are better at this than others obviously, much like some are better at installing flooring than others.

see the relationship here ?

quote:

a just court of law.

Now that's an oxymoron.

quote:

Originally posted by bob:

quote:

a just court of law.

Now that's an oxymoron.

Yea, you're right, it is an oxymoron, just as retailers calling employees--subs.

Kinda like certain people that claim to understand, but they don't and all they seem to do is create fighting, while they twist and turn word and meaning and in general, rarely address anything in it's entirety. Now those are oxy---well, some will know.

Of course the retailers and mills don't need installers to be a seperate entity, because then they would have to come to the bargaining table. As long as they own control and own some that ---claim to be installers---that only create fighting between all installers, then things will stay the same and the dumb ole installers will just yuck along, as even plumbers make twice what they do. hahahahahahahahaha

quote:

Inspectors arent out to make anyone look bad or good.

they have one function ... independent unbiased search for the truth.

Yeah right 67, come on. Thats a politcally correct statement if I ever read one.

All carpet cleaners do is suck dirt. Most have never installed in their life let alone any hardsurface for any extended period of time where they would actually know diddly squat if the had to install it or fix it themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Old codger:

then things will stay the same and the dumb ole installers will just yuck along, as even plumbers make twice what they do

then go to school, get legally licensed, and become a plumber if you want to make what they do. FLooring does not require trade/state licensing. Only business/contractor licensing and only is some states ... or hey howsabout you grow your business and offer more to get more ?!!


HK,

I dont care what other services they provide or have provided in the past. If they are certified inspectors and were taught the correct way to investigate a failure, and use that knowledge and do it the right way, then nothing else matters.

Of course you will always have unethical practices in any industry. Flooring inspections isnt the lone wolf in that theory. But I truely believe that is the exception, not the rule. Some who act unethically might allow their larger accounts to dictate their reports. I dont think its right and if they are ever caught I think fraud could be charged criminally.

Before I was a floorman I sold newspapers as a youth. Does that mean that newspaper delivery boys cant progress and advance into floor coverings installation ?

I fail to see the relevence of your post about carpet cleaners being no good as inspectors.

Anyone can be anything they want to be with enough knowledge and schooling.

quote:

Originally posted by floorman67:

quote:

Originally posted by Old codger:

then things will stay the same and the dumb ole installers will just yuck along, as even plumbers make twice what they do

then go to school, get legally licensed, and become a plumber if you want to make what they do. FLooring does not require trade/state licensing. Only business/contractor licensing and only is some states ... or hey howsabout you grow your business and offer more to get more ?!!


HK,

I dont care what other services they provide or have provided in the past. If they are certified inspectors and were taught the correct way to investigate a failure, and use that knowledge and do it the right way, then nothing else matters.

Of course you will always have unethical practices in any industry. Flooring inspections isnt the lone wolf in that theory. But I truely believe that is the exception, not the rule. Some who act unethically might allow their larger accounts to dictate their reports. I dont think its right and if they are ever caught I think fraud could be charged criminally.

Before I was a floorman I sold newspapers as a youth. Does that mean that newspaper delivery boys cant progress and advance into floor coverings installation ?

I fail to see the relevence of your post about carpet cleaners being no good as inspectors.

Anyone can be anything they want to be with enough knowledge and schooling.

Floorman, you sure like to twist word and meaning, but that must come from being a habitual --story teller. Artificially creative? yes, but hateful to those in this industry so much is heaped upon.

You say,--then go to school, get legally licensed, and become a plumber if you want to make what they do. THAT'S NOT THE POINT, but then any 9th grader would know that. The point was, that our trade is controlled and wages forced artifically low by our industry as a whole and shown by the plumbers and roofers, minimum pay, versus our own. THAT WAS THE POINT.

Then you say,--or hey howsabout you grow your business and offer more to get more ?!!

If I grew my business anymore than myself, I would have to hire some of the hardest working men out here and pay them what the industry as a whole forces upon them, which by the way, is not regulated according to supply and demand, but rather by "artificial creativity", you know, just like you use against installers so easily.

Money can be a good thing, but not at the expense of watching other men that work for you, that are taken advantage of while this industry and customers demand evermore, being paid less and less each year, according to all the economic indicators. IE: an installers pay versus the plumbers and roofers and the prices paid to installers back in 1970. We are earning far less than back then.

Look at the case of Kevin and all he is going thru to easily see the craftsmanship is not really wanted or being paid for, so when the installers aren't paid for knowledge and craftsmanship, little to no respect for installers, because for the vast majority of the public, they are a hidden entity, until they perform their services.

Then, as is happening to Kevin, he suffers the ignorance and ineptness of those he has dealt with and how many men has he dealt with now? HOW AGGRIVATED IS HE? He tells you flat out.

I've been in houses where the concrete from one side of the house to the other may vary by 5 or 6 inches and sometimes in one room by as much as two inches, as you stand just outside the room and see a hump in the middle and the edges fall away.

Why didn't you explain to kevin about the lazers and that by such, he could closely calculate how much material will be needed and the costs, never mind all the other problems that can be encountered by such.

If the rooms or the house has even a slight slope to them, the job could get real bad as the SLC seeks to build the lowest areas towards the highest and if the slope happens to be at one or more outside walls, the SLC will have to climb the walls, at the outside walls, visually throwing things off, as well as costing him a lot of money. If from room to room there is a slope, the door heights may need to be adjusted by cutting, just as a for instance.

The quarter round could be affected quite severly and there will be more possibilities and probabilities to deaL with, but I'll bet if Kevin were to say to the guys that came out and gave him a bid, none of these things would be discussed and they sure wouldn't lazer level the floors and tell him cost before they started either.

All the ignorance and uncaring thruout our industry is due to being so heavily controlled and unfortunately, the customers pay again and again for so much ignorance.

Just because I love working this hard and well to make a living does not mean I or we, should be used and abused.

Many college grads are taught to consider specialties, but not taught to use common sense. Have you ever heard of a school that teaches common sense? NO.

Does anybody else wonder why Jimmy doesn't just get out of this business? Or stick a gun in his mouth?

BTW this post is copywritten, and I need to be paid for it.